Elan Lee, Co-Creator of Exploding Kittens — How to Raise Millions on Kickstarter, Deconstructing Mega-Successes, Secrets of Game Design, The Power of Positive Constraints, The Delights of Craftsmanship, and The Art of Turning Fans into Superfans (#653)

“I don’t want a game to be in the spotlight. I want the players to be in the spotlight.”
— Elan Lee

Elan Lee (@elanlee) is the co-creator and chief executive officer of Exploding Kittens, a leading gaming and entertainment company. Under his leadership, Exploding Kittens has expanded its portfolio to nearly 30 different games with more than 20 million games sold in more than 50 countries since its founding in 2015.

Before founding Exploding Kittens, Lee was the chief design officer at Xbox Entertainment Studios, where he led the Interactive Entertainment Portfolio. Prior to that, he was the founder and chief creative officer of Fourth Wall Studios and co-founder of 42 Entertainment. He began his career at Microsoft Games Studios as a lead designer on the original Xbox.

Lee has won a Primetime Emmy for the series Dirty Work; Game Innovator of the Year for Exploding Kittens; a Peabody Award for the world’s first alternate reality game, The Beast; and an IndieCade Trailblazer Award for a distinguished career in interactive entertainment, among others.

Please enjoy!

Listen to the episode on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Overcast, Podcast Addict, Pocket Casts, Castbox, Google Podcasts, Stitcher, Amazon Music, or on your favorite podcast platform. You can watch the interview on YouTube here.

Brought to you by Athletic Greens’s AG1 all-in-one nutritional supplement, Helix Sleep premium mattresses, and Shopify global commerce platform providing tools to start, grow, market, and manage a retail business.

The transcript of this episode can be found here. Transcripts of all episodes can be found here.

Listen onApple Podcasts

Listen onSpotify

Listen onOvercast

#653: Elan Lee, Co-Creator of Exploding Kittens — How to Raise Millions on Kickstarter, Deconstructing Mega-Successes, Secrets of Game Design, The Power of Positive Constraints, The Delights of Craftsmanship, and The Art of Turning Fans into Superfans

This episode is brought to you by AG1! I get asked all the time, “If you could use only one supplement, what would it be?” My answer is usually AG1, my all-in-one nutritional insurance. I recommended it in The 4-Hour Body in 2010 and did not get paid to do so. I do my best with nutrient-dense meals, of course, but AG1 further covers my bases with vitamins, minerals, and whole-food-sourced micronutrients that support gut health and the immune system.

Right now, you’ll get a 1-year supply of Vitamin D free with your first subscription purchase—a vital nutrient for a strong immune system and strong bones. Visit DrinkAG1.com/Tim to claim this special offer today and receive your 1-year supply of Vitamin D (and 5 free AG1 travel packs) with your first subscription purchase! That’s up to a one-year supply of Vitamin D as added value when you try their delicious and comprehensive daily, foundational nutrition supplement that supports whole-body health.

This episode is brought to you by Helix Sleep! Helix was selected as the best overall mattress of 2022 by GQ magazine, Wired, and Apartment Therapy. With Helix, there’s a specific mattress to meet each and every body’s unique comfort needs. Just take their quiz—only two minutes to complete—that matches your body type and sleep preferences to the perfect mattress for you. They have a 10-year warranty, and you get to try it out for a hundred nights, risk-free. They’ll even pick it up from you if you don’t love it. And now, Helix is offering 20% off all mattress orders plus two free pillows at HelixSleep.com/Tim.

This episode is brought to you by Shopify! Shopify is one of my favorite platforms and one of my favorite companies. Shopify is designed for anyone to sell anywhere, giving entrepreneurs the resources once reserved for big business. In no time flat, you can have a great-looking online store that brings your ideas to life, and you can have the tools to manage your day-to-day and drive sales. No coding or design experience required.

Go to shopify.com/Tim to sign up for a one-dollar-per-month trial period. It’s a great deal for a great service, so I encourage you to check it out. Take your business to the next level today by visiting shopify.com/Tim.

Would you like to hear another podcast episode that features an alternate reality game designer? Have a listen to my most recent conversation with Jane McGonigal, in which we discussed video games to play for quieting your mind before bedtime, why Tetris is uniquely effective at treating PTSD, eerily prescient 2020 predictions from a 2010 simulation, politics and cryptocurrency, urgent optimism, trust warfare, emergency preparedness, and much more.

#579: Jane McGonigal — How She Predicted COVID in 2010, Becoming the Expert of Your Own Future, Trust Warfare, the 10-Year Winter, and How to Cultivate Optimism

What was your favorite quote or lesson from this episode? Please let me know in the comments.

SCROLL BELOW FOR LINKS AND SHOW NOTES…

SELECTED LINKS FROM THE EPISODE

Connect with Elan Lee:

Twitter | LinkedIn

Connect with Exploding Kittens:

Website | Twitter | Instagram | TikTok | YouTube

SHOW NOTES

[06:00] Poetry For Neanderthals and collaborating with creative cohorts.
[16:41] Kitty Test Pilots and core gameplay loops.
[22:21] Crowdfunding, alternate reality games, and internet archaeology.
[25:54] Matthew Inman and The Oatmeal millions.
[32:18] The perils of operating faster than the speed of Gmail.
[34:06] Converting casual fans into superfans.
[34:51] What not to do when your Kickstarter goes better than expected.
[36:51] The budget of production needs to fit the fun.
[43:01] Does size matter?
[44:44] From direct-to-consumer sales to being featured in big box stores.
[47:07] Building a game from scratch quickly.
[52:26] Guiding principles.
[56:37] Foundational game recommendations for beginners.
[1:05:10] Is Settlers of Catan the game you think it is?
[1:07:35] Lessons learned from game design veteran Jordan Weisman.
[1:08:50] If you built Jar Jar Binks’ neck, they practically let you run the place.
[1:11:38] If you can’t rock the vote, then clothe the vote.
[1:15:35] Other practical Jordanisms.
[1:16:55] Steven Spielberg and The Beast.
[1:23:19] Hate playing Candy Land with your kids? Design new games with them.
[1:28:02] Growing Exploding Kittens from a game into a company.
[1:32:56] International shipping nightmares.
[1:36:13] Why an open-door policy had to be shut.
[1:38:27] Employees and their roles.
[1:41:50] Milestones.
[1:43:06] When big asks get big results.
[1:47:18] Investor expectations.
[1:52:15] What kind of retirement does someone who makes fun for a living envision?
[1:56:07] Dance partners, algorithm defiance, and other parting thoughts.

MORE ELAN LEE QUOTES FROM THE INTERVIEW

“When I was growing up, the biggest frustration I had with games was, first and foremost, the instructions. I don’t have the patience to even read 20 minutes, let alone the seven hours to get into those crazy games. And so I really wanted to make games that 10-year-old me would really get a kick out of.”

— Elan Lee

“A game should be beautiful. You should look at a game and smile. It should be a source of joy. These things should be dopamine engines, and part of that is you want to hold the thing and show it to all your friends.”

— Elan Lee

“I don’t want a game to be in the spotlight. I want the players to be in the spotlight.”

— Elan Lee

“I once took a week-long skydiving course, and at the end of it, I asked the instructor, ‘Do you ever get bored of this?’ And he said, ‘Do you ever get bored of having sex?’ And I thought, that’s exactly it. That’s how I feel about games. That’s how I feel about this job. It’s not a thing with an expiration. It’s a little dopamine factory for me and the people who get to have these experiences. I don’t know how you get bored of that. That’s just eternal.”

— Elan Lee

“I only care about one question. In fact, we do all these play tests, we don’t even give out surveys anymore. There’s only one question we ask, which is, ‘When you finished playing the game, did you want to play again?’ And a game is done when 100 percent of the people say ‘Yes.'”

— Elan Lee

PEOPLE MENTIONED

Related and Recommended

The Tim Ferriss Show is one of the most popular podcasts in the world with more than one billion downloads. It has been selected for "Best of Apple Podcasts" three times, it is often the #1 interview podcast across all of Apple Podcasts, and it's been ranked #1 out of 400,000+ podcasts on many occasions. To listen to any of the past episodes for free, check out this page.

Leave a ReplyCancel reply

Comment Rules: Remember what Fonzie was like? Cool. That’s how we’re gonna be — cool. Critical is fine, but if you’re rude, we’ll delete your stuff. Please do not put your URL in the comment text and please use your PERSONAL name or initials and not your business name, as the latter comes off like spam. Have fun and thanks for adding to the conversation! (Thanks to Brian Oberkirch for the inspiration.)

6 Comments

Inline Feedbacks

View all comments

Ann

1 year ago

Not going to listen to this one. That game bugged me when I saw it stacked in Target one Christmas. I mean did he need to name it THAT??? I gathered all I could find and dropped them down a rolled poster container box near the toy department to be found weeks or months later. A few ended up in chest drawers in the baby section. I left the store feeling satisfied.

Rick

I’m not a gamer nor do I enjoy playing games so I had low expectations going in, but this is now one of my favorite episodes of your podcast. I found myself thinking throughout the conversation of all the ways that the game development processes, experiences, and frameworks Elan described can be applied to other platforms and product development. Truly a cross-pollination gold mine. Thanks!

Pat

You have the worst site design of all the authors/speakers/coaches… can you call [Moderator: name of company removed.] and get something popping… Everything is set in 2007 still.. we have come a long way with design. PLEASE UPGRADE!!!

Ted Gale

One of most enjoyable episodes of the show I have heard. Many (most) are interesting and informative, but this one was special–just brought a smile to my face. “Exploding Kittens” is a blast–how nice to hear that its creators understand exactly what makes it so much fun..

Josh

Awesome episodes, thank you! You gotta get Jordan on the pod now. He sounds like a wizard or something. COCKPUNCH!!

Alex Montague

Hi Tim,
I’m currently designing a block stacking game, think Jenga meets Tetris, along with cards, dice, and laughter. The playtesting has been going very well and the feedback has me elated with optimism.
Since you want to design a game as well, maybe we could collaborate?
It’s not too late for you to influence the gameplay and stamp some additional core gameplay loops of your own.

I’m an entrepreneur and have been a fan of yours for a decade. I know this is a shot in the dark but hey, sometimes that’s how entrepreneurs get things done.
Hope to hear back soon where I can give you additional details. Thank you!